My current summer reading is “ten ways to destroy the imagination of your child.” As the title suggests , the rueful irony of the book is a little dense at times, but the first chapter tackles exactly this dilemma. Focus on facts can ruin the beauty of knowledge. But without factual knowledge, perhaps explicitly in math of all subjects, you can’t have the discovery moments that can come afterward.
I love the idea that it’s our job to put interesting things in our children’s way and then see which ones interest them. Lately I’m more and more letting go of the attachment I’ve had to getting my kids to do the things I think are worthwhile and recognising that they are in fact doing valuable learning of their own volition: this has to a large degree been influenced by discovering your Substack. Thank you for your thoughts on this book.
That’s so great to hear! I love tuning in to what the children are learning even when on the surface it might not look like learning at all. So pleased you’re enjoying the posts 😊
I used to follow Fisher on twitter, back when I used the site regularly.
A few months back, a tweeter said they’d been educated by their parents in a similar way to that which Fisher recommends, and that they wished this hadn’t been the case as they felt they had missed out, had gaps in their learning as a result. Fisher was unsympathetic and asked the tweeter what was stopping them learning those things as an adult, now?
Something about the exchange felt veey glib to me, as though Fisher was unwilling to engage properly with criticism.
My home educated youngest is autistic (as am I) and as Fisher’s work is recommended a *lot* to parents of autistic children, she has a huge following in the online groups I’m in. Any criticism is quickly shut down. I’m not sure this is especially healthy. I agree with much of what you’ve said in this post, for sure.
(As for multiplication tables, I could write an essay on my thoughts about that, but I’ll spare you!)
Yes, I’ve noticed that you’re not really allowed to have an open discussion on this topic in certain corners of the internet. I hope this isn’t one of them—I want my children to grow up in a world where debate is good!
I think one aspect of education that Fisher doesn’t address is that childhood, especially early childhood, is such a powerful time for soaking up information, and I think that’s why adults sometimes regret that they didn’t learn more at that time. It’s much harder to fill in those gaps as an adult, especially when you also have a job and a family and everything else. Personally I used to be able to read a book and know it almost word for word. Now I sometimes read a whole book before realising I’ve already read it before 😂
And I would love to hear your thoughts on multiplication tables!
My husband had a big run in in on one of those Facebook Groups about our ten-year-old, thankfully anonymously! For context, we insist on at least ten minutes maths, ten minutes english (not always strictly delineated) and if you want music lessons you must practice. Otherwise we just try and do interesting things and talk a lot. No that is not in any way "school at home". He'd tell you he doesn't like maths but can manipulate numbers for the things he wants to do incredibly easily. We find that a small bit of deliberate practice and plenty of time to assimilate it and consider if and how it's useful is ideal.
On the internet it seems like everyone is either totally hands off or very structured but pretty much everyone I know works in a hybrid style!
FTR we did times tables with flashcards 4 years ago when he wanted to and not when he didn't and he seems to either know them or calculate very fast!
Yes I agree, everything online seems to be either one thing or the other, and also view only one approach as acceptable, but I don’t think that’s how most families work. That’s partly what I hope to show with How We Homeschool. Come to think of it could I tempt you to write a guest post for me some time of a day in your own home ed life…?
I’ll try and put it succinctly (I’m not particularly good at that though)! I’m still mulling over my thoughts on maths and home ed and I still have a lot to think about.
Basically I think that when children learn tables and other maths facts by rote, there is a *bit* of a risk of them thinking of arithmetic as the sort of end-point to maths in and of itself, rather than it being a useful maths tool, and be overwhelmed/disillusioned when they encounter algebra, trig, proof and so on, and realise that having a good memory for maths facts is no longer enough to be ‘good at maths’ (I saw this happen a little with my eldest). I suppose I think of it a little like phonics; can be useful to learn in order to be able to read, but not an end-point (hence why I’m not a big fan of the phonics screening test in schools).
I suppose I’m broadly in favour of committing maths facts to memory, but with the caveat that it shouldn’t be seen as the main aim. If that makes sense?
Yes total sense and I agree. Multiplication facts are a means to an end not an end in themselves. I think there is a big difference between being able to chant the six times table and understanding what ‘six sevens’ actually means. That six sevens is seven more than five sevens. And that six sevens is the same as 3 fourteens (it has blown my mind a bit, coming to truly understand this as I do Multiplication by Heart with the children!)
I notice that people who are really comfortable with maths use it and see it around them in a way that the rest of us just don’t. So in a way I see maths as a language. Millions of people survive without knowing French, but if you can learn it, a whole new world is opened up to you that you didn’t even know existed before.
I like how you say you are still mulling over your thoughts on maths and home ed. It’s so nice to give ourselves the option to update our position and change our perspective. I think we could all do with a good dose of this kind of flexibility, and not just in relation to multiplication!
I think in person Naomi comes across as much more open and less extreme - and also willing to talk through parents particular challenges.
That said, She’s more extreme than my view and I don’t particularly challenge her (but try and draw out her views) but you might like listen to this podcast I did with her. https://www.thendobetter.com/arts/2022/8/31/naomi-fisher-home-education-unschool-agency-in-learning-meltdowns-child-led-learning-cognitive-psychology-podcast
Thank you Ben, I will definitely have a listen. Always good to be able to hear thoughts as part of a discussion, thank you for the link.
Great! Also, I'm pretty openminded here. I chat with a teacher Jade, who mostly makes opposing points on the benefits of school and strucutre - although we chat about many other things too. https://www.thendobetter.com/arts/2023/2/2/jade-obrien-from-stockbroker-to-teacher-being-a-woman-in-finance-schools-and-teaching-podcast
My current summer reading is “ten ways to destroy the imagination of your child.” As the title suggests , the rueful irony of the book is a little dense at times, but the first chapter tackles exactly this dilemma. Focus on facts can ruin the beauty of knowledge. But without factual knowledge, perhaps explicitly in math of all subjects, you can’t have the discovery moments that can come afterward.
What an intriguing sounding book. Another one for my never ending list…!
I love the idea that it’s our job to put interesting things in our children’s way and then see which ones interest them. Lately I’m more and more letting go of the attachment I’ve had to getting my kids to do the things I think are worthwhile and recognising that they are in fact doing valuable learning of their own volition: this has to a large degree been influenced by discovering your Substack. Thank you for your thoughts on this book.
That’s so great to hear! I love tuning in to what the children are learning even when on the surface it might not look like learning at all. So pleased you’re enjoying the posts 😊
I used to follow Fisher on twitter, back when I used the site regularly.
A few months back, a tweeter said they’d been educated by their parents in a similar way to that which Fisher recommends, and that they wished this hadn’t been the case as they felt they had missed out, had gaps in their learning as a result. Fisher was unsympathetic and asked the tweeter what was stopping them learning those things as an adult, now?
Something about the exchange felt veey glib to me, as though Fisher was unwilling to engage properly with criticism.
My home educated youngest is autistic (as am I) and as Fisher’s work is recommended a *lot* to parents of autistic children, she has a huge following in the online groups I’m in. Any criticism is quickly shut down. I’m not sure this is especially healthy. I agree with much of what you’ve said in this post, for sure.
(As for multiplication tables, I could write an essay on my thoughts about that, but I’ll spare you!)
Yes, I’ve noticed that you’re not really allowed to have an open discussion on this topic in certain corners of the internet. I hope this isn’t one of them—I want my children to grow up in a world where debate is good!
I think one aspect of education that Fisher doesn’t address is that childhood, especially early childhood, is such a powerful time for soaking up information, and I think that’s why adults sometimes regret that they didn’t learn more at that time. It’s much harder to fill in those gaps as an adult, especially when you also have a job and a family and everything else. Personally I used to be able to read a book and know it almost word for word. Now I sometimes read a whole book before realising I’ve already read it before 😂
And I would love to hear your thoughts on multiplication tables!
My husband had a big run in in on one of those Facebook Groups about our ten-year-old, thankfully anonymously! For context, we insist on at least ten minutes maths, ten minutes english (not always strictly delineated) and if you want music lessons you must practice. Otherwise we just try and do interesting things and talk a lot. No that is not in any way "school at home". He'd tell you he doesn't like maths but can manipulate numbers for the things he wants to do incredibly easily. We find that a small bit of deliberate practice and plenty of time to assimilate it and consider if and how it's useful is ideal.
On the internet it seems like everyone is either totally hands off or very structured but pretty much everyone I know works in a hybrid style!
FTR we did times tables with flashcards 4 years ago when he wanted to and not when he didn't and he seems to either know them or calculate very fast!
Yes I agree, everything online seems to be either one thing or the other, and also view only one approach as acceptable, but I don’t think that’s how most families work. That’s partly what I hope to show with How We Homeschool. Come to think of it could I tempt you to write a guest post for me some time of a day in your own home ed life…?
You could, I don't think it would be anywhere near as exciting as yours though!
I’ll try and put it succinctly (I’m not particularly good at that though)! I’m still mulling over my thoughts on maths and home ed and I still have a lot to think about.
Basically I think that when children learn tables and other maths facts by rote, there is a *bit* of a risk of them thinking of arithmetic as the sort of end-point to maths in and of itself, rather than it being a useful maths tool, and be overwhelmed/disillusioned when they encounter algebra, trig, proof and so on, and realise that having a good memory for maths facts is no longer enough to be ‘good at maths’ (I saw this happen a little with my eldest). I suppose I think of it a little like phonics; can be useful to learn in order to be able to read, but not an end-point (hence why I’m not a big fan of the phonics screening test in schools).
I suppose I’m broadly in favour of committing maths facts to memory, but with the caveat that it shouldn’t be seen as the main aim. If that makes sense?
Yes total sense and I agree. Multiplication facts are a means to an end not an end in themselves. I think there is a big difference between being able to chant the six times table and understanding what ‘six sevens’ actually means. That six sevens is seven more than five sevens. And that six sevens is the same as 3 fourteens (it has blown my mind a bit, coming to truly understand this as I do Multiplication by Heart with the children!)
I notice that people who are really comfortable with maths use it and see it around them in a way that the rest of us just don’t. So in a way I see maths as a language. Millions of people survive without knowing French, but if you can learn it, a whole new world is opened up to you that you didn’t even know existed before.
I like how you say you are still mulling over your thoughts on maths and home ed. It’s so nice to give ourselves the option to update our position and change our perspective. I think we could all do with a good dose of this kind of flexibility, and not just in relation to multiplication!